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Please explain the construction of Numbered chords......

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(@fleaaaaaa)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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So I understand how to make a triad - Say C E G so you cake the first (C) the third (E) and the fifth (G). So the seventh in the C7 is actually a minor seventh in this chord (as in Cm7) - never had this explained to me but its a Bb rather than a B (which is sensible I suppose because its in a major seventh).

Now I also can play C9 and C11 but I dont understand these numberings at all. This is how I know C9 - and C11 - could anyone go into constructing and naming more complicating chords with examples of how to play them :) I know I should probably know this stuff by now but I'm a bit dumb sometimes when it comes to theory. Thanks!

-3- -5-
-3- -3-
-3- -3-
-3- -3-
-2- -2-
-3- -3-
-x- -x-
C9 C11

together we stand, divided we fall..........


   
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(@alangreen)
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Joined: 22 years ago
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C7 is not a chord in the key of C, it's the dominant chord in the key of F (key signature: one flat) - which is why the C7 chord has a Bb in it. This is where so many people fall over.

In the key of C, we have the chord named "C natural 7th" (usually called Cmaj7)

You need the root note - C
You need it to be a major chord so you need the major third - E
You need the 7th note in the scale of C major - B

Low to high: 032000

C9 - a chord in the key of F

You need the root note - C
You need it to be a major chord so you need the major third - E
You need the 7th because the 9th is a dominant extension - Bb
And you need the 9th - D

Cadd9 -

You need the root note - C
You need it to be a major chord so you need the major third - E
You need the 9th - D (or the 11th - F or the 13th - A)

Low to high: 032030

Grab yourself a GCSE level music theory book - most will go into dominant 7ths and extensions (C7, C9, C11, C13) in some detail.

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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(@corbind)
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Disclaimer: I know about 1/50 th of Alan's knowledge base -- so take anything I say as such....

Your question is to explain the numbering of chords. Alan gave you the real world application of what people use by commonly dropping out the 5th of the chord. If you want to play a C9 chords you know there will be the 1-3-5-7-9 or 5 notes. Often that would entail using a heck of a lot of fingers!

1 = C = Root
3 = E = major third = (major 3rd interval from the root)
5 = G = perfect fifth (perfect 4th interval from the root)
7 = Bb = dominant seventh (minor 7th interval from root)
9 = D = major second (octave + major 2nd interval from the root)

Playing 5 notes at once on guitar makes me cringe. So the fifth is often left out so you only play 4 notes. Then this brings up the naming convention: you then can't call it a C9 if you do not play C-E-G-Bb-A. If you drop out the fifth you play C-E- -Bb-A so would be C9 (no third). Or if you C add 9 you'd be playing C-E-G- -A.

Again, what I'm saying is literal but, in practice, players will drop notes out of the equation to be able to play it. And as long as you hit the "right" notes you'll be fine. When playing in a band you can often omit the root (the bass player has that one) and the fifth which frees you up to maybe only play the third, dom seventh and ninth for flavor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm starting to think I'm doing a horrible job of explaining anything here. Back to the original question:
“Please explain the construction of Numbered chords”

Here is how they are numbered as you progress.
Frets (or half steps) to move from the root -- Nave
0 frets -- Root (Octave is 12 frets)
1 fret -- Minor 2nd (Flat 9th)
2 frets -- Major 2nd (9th)
3 frets -- Minor 3rd (Sharp 9th)
4 frets -- Major 3rd
5 frets -- Perfect 4th (11th)
6 frets -- Flat 5th (Sharp 11th)
7 frets -- Perfect 5th
8 frets -- Augmented 5th
9 frets -- Major 6th (Diminished 7th or 13th)
10 frets -- Dominant 7th
11 frets -- Major 7th
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or if we extend the scale it starts over where the octave = root
12 frets -- Octave
13 fret -- Flat 9th
14 frets -- 9th
15 frets -- Sharp 9th
16 frets --
17 frets -- 11th
18 frets -- Sharp 11th
19 frets --
20 frets --
21 frets -- 13th
22 frets --
23 frets --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suppose you play an open G chord as 3-2-0-0-0-3 (G-B-D-G-B-G)
What if you lift off your index finger and play 3-0-0-0-0-3 ((G-A-D-G-B-G)
Now is this a G add 9 or G add 2? That is a very low A note only a whole step away from the root so I'd call it add2. If you had played this:
3-2-0-2-0-3 ((G-B-D-A-B-G)
I'd be inclined to call it G add 9 because that A note is over an octave away from the root. Calling something add 9 or add 2 is really the SAME NOTE but the naming convention describes if the added note is close to the root. No matter what you call it the reality is all you need to know is a 2nd and 9th are the same note so don't stress over the name.

"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."


   
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(@alangreen)
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Joined: 22 years ago
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Playing 5 notes at once on guitar makes me cringe. So the fifth is often left out so you only play 4 notes. Then this brings up the naming convention: you then can't call it a C9 if you do not play C-E-G-Bb-A. If you drop out the fifth you play C-E- -Bb-A so would be C9 (no third). Or if you C add 9 you'd be playing C-E-G- -A.

Yep - the 5th is the note you can leave out without it affecting your chord

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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Chord construction is something that confuses a lot of guitarists. In the beginning we're taught "put your fingers here - this is a D chord"... so we naturally associate chord names with fingerings. Except for the fact that there are about 100 other ways to play a D chord, this works, and we get started.

Later on we might learn a little theory, and find that a dominant 7th chord is the 1-3-5-b7 of the scale. Few of us stop to think that the C7 we learned in the beginning (x32310) doesn't contain a G.

By the time we get to learning 13th chords, we're in trouble... in theory, they have 7 notes (the root, 3rd, 5th, b7, 9th, 11th, and 13th). We've got six strings. Something's got to give.

So we've got this divide between what theory says CAN be in the chord, and what we should actually do. For that, we have to look at what chord names actually are in the context of a song... they're an outline of the harmony.

Think of it like a movie script. On the page it says "you want some of this?". No two performers will deliver that line the same way. And no one performer will deliver it at all without context - is it a romantic comedy, or is it a police drama? If it's a comedy, is the character speaking a lounge lizard delivering a pickup line, or is it the flirtatious girlfriend? Is the cop intimidating a suspect, or offering a donut to his partner?

That's kind of what a chord name is... a general outline. How you deliver it depends on context, on your skill level, and how you interpret the musical 'scene'.

What a chord name tells you is what you COULD play. What you should play is a whole 'nuther thang :)

Let's take that C9 chord. What that name is telling you is:

a. This is a dominant chord type (7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, altered chords, augmenteds, and diminished chords are dominant - they have a 'tension'). You want the TOTAL SOUND to be uneasy, to have to resolve somewhere.

b. There's a 9th of the scale in it. You want the TOTAL SOUND to include this note.

So what should you play?

If you're in a 10 piece band, odds are good that somebody else is going to play the D note. Odds are also good that somebody will play a C note. You might be able to get by with xx23xx. Your two notes create a tension - the other folks make that tension a C9.

If you're in a trio, you might do x7878x. The notes you're playing will be E, Bb, D, and G. There isn't a C in sight, and if you were presented with just the fingering you might say you're playing an Em7b5. But you know the bass player will hit that C, and the total sound will again be a C9.

If you're playing solo, you might opt for a "complete" voicing, like x32333. Or you might leave something out. Or you might not leave anything out, but STILL play fewer notes!

Not leaving anything out, but not playing all the notes in a voicing gets back to the chord symbol being an outline of the harmony, the basic script. Chords can be arpeggiated (broken up over time). You might play the C, then the D, then the Bb and E together, and end with a G... or do it in some other sequence. Short term memory plays a HUGE role in the way we experience music - the listener will experience C9.

Leaving something out can be done for practical reasons, to make something more playable... or for musical reasons, to avoid inserting a tension into a chord voicing. If you see Cmaj11 in a chart, playing both the E and F might give you a feeling of tension, and it isn't supposed to be a dominant chord type. Same thing with using both B and F - you get a tension, even though those are the 7th and 11th of the chord. So you might opt for C-F-G-D. Once again, looking at only the fingering, folks might say you're really playing a G7sus.

But you know better. Because you've seen the script. And you know it's the right way to play it for the way you're interpreting the scene.

As a very general rule, you want a chord to include:

1. The "highest" note implied - a C11 should probably have an F in it. (It may not literally be the "highest" note, because you might be playing an inversion)

2. Any altered tones in the chord name. If it says #5 or b9 in the chord name, you probably want those in there.

3. If it's a dominant chord type, you'll probably want the 3rd and 7th, since those are what give 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths their tension.

4. If you still have space left - that is, if you have less than 4 notes - you can include anything else that's in the theoretical chord. Or not. I try to pay attention to the size of the ensemble when making that decision.

And as very general guidelines, here's what you might consider leaving out:

- the 3rd in a major 11th chord; it creates tension (but it's fine in a m11 chord)

- the fifth, as it's often musically redundant; it shares the role of the root.

- anything between the 7th and the "highest" note - you can drop the 9th and 11th from a 13th chord, etc.

This is one of the topics that frustrates students, and seems natural to pros. You need to learn the theory to know what the possibilities are; you need to depart from theory (actually, you're not... but you are SIMPLIFYING the application of theory) to get it to sound musical.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@hbriem)
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Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 646
 

I'm just nitpicking and correcting typos, not adding anything material to this excellent discussion.
1 = C = Root
3 = E = major third = (major 3rd interval from the root)
5 = G = perfect fifth (perfect 4th interval from the root)
7 = Bb = dominant seventh (minor 7th interval from root)
9 = A = major second (octave + major 2nd interval from the root)

The 9 in a C chord is D, not A.
Few of us stop to think that the C7 we learned in the beginning (x32310) doesn't contain a third.

Doesn't contain a fifth.

Learning a lot from this discussion. I play in a sort of punk band so we don't use a lot of extended chords although I occasionally use one in the songs I write.

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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(@fleaaaaaa)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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Topic starter  

Questions questions.........

So........ G major 11 - now is that the same thing as G11?

How do we make a sus chord, I have played them in the past but do you have a formula to name them say - Dsus4 is like this - D A G and Dsus2 is D A E (I think) just going from the chords I can already play...... so how do you decide - oh thats a sus2 or sus4 chord not just by recognising the sound I mean.

together we stand, divided we fall..........


   
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(@hbriem)
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Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 646
 

o........ G major 11 - now is that the same thing as G11?

No, a Gmaj 11 is 1-3-5-7-11 (g-b-d-f#-c, Gmaj7 + 11) while a G11 is 1-3-5-b7-11 (g-b-d-f-c, G7 + 11).

Note however, that neither is really a chord that is used much. The 11 (4) extension is generally used in place of the 3rd as in a sus4 chord, not with it.

--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com


   
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(@corbind)
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Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 1735
 

I remember my head just hurting when I was learning this kind of stuff in my first year of playing guitar. I really felt like chucking it all out the window and claiming I don't need music theory to play (which is true). But I stuck it out and it has really helped in understanding some things. Sadly, I can't say it makes me play any better! :shock:

Anyway, I just did a screen shot of an Excel file I made back in 2002. This chart has a description at the bottom and helps me visualize how chords are constructed. Read it slowly. I like to think of how they're constructed by how many FRET, or half-steps), to move to get each note. Strange...but effective for me.

Sorry it is so small but I tried larger sizes but were not accepted. Here is a larger picture you can click on...

http://tinypic.com/m/f2twcx/2

"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."


   
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(@vic-lewis-vl)
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Posts: 10264
 

Or if you C add 9 you'd be playing C-E-G- -A.

Er, no, that'd be a C6 chord - OR and inversion of an Am7 chord. For a Cadd9 chord, you'd need the root, third, fifth and ninth of the Cmajor scale without the 7th. So that'd be C, E, G and D.....

For any added chord, you add the 9th, 11th or 13th to the major triad - so the chord would be root, third, fifth and 9th; root, third, fifth and 11th (or fourth - but we count UPWARDS {in thirds} when stacking chords!) or root, third, fifth and thirteenth - or sixth, but again, we count UPWARDS.

Chord naming can be confusing sometimes....an add 11th chord (root, third, fifth, eleventh) could be written (root, fourth, fifth, 10th) as a sus4 add 10! Counting upwards, of course.....

Sometimes, it depends on context - x02010 is an Am7 chord. x35555 is a C6 chord - play them one after the other. They sound nothing like each other - and yet (work this out for yourselves!) both chords contain the notes C E G and A.

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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(@alangreen)
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Sometimes, it depends on context - x02010 is an Am7 chord. x35555 is a C6 chord - play them one after the other. They sound nothing like each other - and yet (work this out for yourselves!) both chords contain the notes C E G and A.

That's cos the brain hears the first note you strum, which is going to be the lowest-sounding in a downstroke, and assumes that's the root of your harmony.

Compare that with an upstroke - it sounds completely different to the same chord played in a downstroke because the first note you strum is the highest-sounding note and the brain expects something different.

"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk


   
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